From hinves@world.net Sat Oct 19 21:52:09 1996 Received: from world.net (sydney2.world.net [198.142.12.2]) by shellx.best.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) with ESMTP id VAA16747 for ; Sat, 19 Oct 1996 21:51:47 -0700 Received: from hinves (sydney63.world.net [192.190.215.63]) by world.net (8.7.4/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA29359 for ; Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:53:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961020045641.006758f0@world.net> X-Sender: hinves@world.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:56:41 +1000 To: ariel@best.com From: Martin Hinves Subject: Article 2 Status: RO 1001 QUESTIONS TO ASK KIP MCKEAN By Martin Hinves Justice of the Peace Ex Acting Lance Corporal (unpaid) Australian Army Reserve Ex Skydiver Ex member Sydney Church of Christ 1992-94 2-2-4-0 (that's left twice, kicked out twice, 4 visitors and 0 disciples) 1) Who is Kip McKean's Discipler ? ( and I mean none of this rot about ICC discipling being a two way process, we all know what really happens if you try and give advice to your 'discipler' ) ? 2) When Kip McKean came to Sydney recently why did the Sydney ICC leaders refuse all contact to him by ex-members and concerned parents ? 3) Why does Kip refuse to tell the truth about what happened at Indianapolis ? Upside down Issue 11 1994 " A very sad chapter in our history was written in March of this year Ed Powers, the lead evangelist of the Indianapolis Church of Christ, like Korah, being filled with bitterness and selfish ambition, deceived the entitre congregation and caused many to lose their faith and turn away from God. Several World Leaders namely Doug Arthur, Al Baird, Marty Fuqua, Bob Gempel and I flew to Indianapolis to confront this division in the body of Christ. The victory is that 220 of the 700 remained faithful to God, his church, and his movement. " 4) Why do the ICC leaders refuse public debate with those who have different veiws ? 5) Why does the ICC rather than debate 'on the record' their veiws with those concerned about the direction that they have taken; insist upon personal attacks and vilification of every-one who takes a position that is contary to theirs ? 6) Why has the change in tithing occurred ? In 1992 we were asked to give 10% gross (after tax) tithe. In 1994 we were asked to give 10% net (before tax) tithe. In 1995 the minimum is 10% and members are quoting figures of over 1/3 of salary, the reason given the Israelites from the old testament, who were very religious. 7) Why has the change in special contribution occurred ? In 1992 we were asked to give 12 times our weekly contribution. In 1994 we were asked to give 14 times our weekly contribution. In 1995 the minimum is 15 times plus a large lump sum. 8) Why did the Boston Movement change it's name to The International Churches of Christ ? 9) Why does Douglas Arthur not have the surname of his parents : Bob & Pat Gempel ? 10) Why was Mike Fontinot, replaced by Fred Scott as evangelist for Australia ? 11) Why was Upside Down Magazine closed down. ? 12) Why are copies of the Kingdom News Network kept in Leaders flats, under lock and key, with non-ICC members forbidden to borrow them ? 13) Why don't the figures add up ? As you will see below even in the same issue they cannot keep the 'numbers' correct. The ICC openly claims phenomanal growth of roughly 30% a year, as justification that it is God's church, for growth is evidence of grace they say. Yet the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam, and the fastest growing christo-centric church Mormonism. Here are some figures that show that their claims are invalid. As you can see Baptisms are no longer recorded or membership.Study the retention rate too. Upside Down April 1992 Magazine 1979 Attendance 70 Membership 30 1 Church 103 Baptisms 1980 1 Church 200 Baptisms 1981 Attendance 450 Membership 300 1 Church 256 Baptisms 1982 368 Baptisms 1983 Attendance 1558 Membership 968 4 Churches 457 Baptisms 1984 679 Baptisms 1985 Attendance 3800 Membership 2840 6 Churches 735 Baptisms 1986 947 Baptisms 1987 Attendance 9828 Membership 7809 19 Churches 1424 Baptisms 1988 1621 Baptisms 1989 Attendance 26933 Membership 21,254 66 Churches 1990 Membership 28,705 77 Churches 1991 Attendance 50,304 Membership 37,895 (pg13) 37,604 (pg 51) 103 Churches Baptisms in Year 22,135 ( If all those baptised stayed Membership would have exceeded 50,000 yet nearly 60% of those baptised, or 1/4 of church membership left). Kip McKean claims phenomenal growth record of 31 % for the year. Los Angeles Attendance at end 1991 is 2282 , 1241 baptisms occurred during the year. Buenos Aires (pg 44) started with 136 members performed 136 baptisms. (pg 51) ended 1991 with 168 Attendances and 118 baptisms. In 1984 the Boston branch of the ICC (pg 8 )claims over 2000 new Christians in it's history. (N.B 2063 Baptisms occured churchwide in this time). Kip claims (pg 8) also that "the retention rate through all these years of all these baptisms has been about 50%." 1993 Upside Down Magazine August 1994 At the time of the World Missions Leadership Conference claims of 146 Churches with an attendance of over 75,000 A historical quote for 1989 has Los Angeles Attendance as 6000 weekly. 1994 Upside Down Magazine May 1994 February quotation has 53 nations, 146 churches, and 75,000 attendance worldwide. Membership passes 50,000 mark. Attendence now just over 81,000 weekly. Los Angeles attendance now 6000. 1994 Upside Down Magazine August 1994 Attendance 90,000 + Membership (not quoted) 153 Churches Kip McKean claims one baptism every 25 minutes , a new church planted every two weeks. (this equates to at least an extra 1700 baptisms & 4 churches/month). Page 5 claims 63 nations have churches, Page 23 claims 62. 1995 ICC web page (article published by 13/8/95 by AlBaird) accessed 23/3/96 nearly 70,000 disciples in 72 Nations 210 churches 22 churches planted so far in 1995 . 94 Countries yet to reach by year 2000. Top 25 ICC churches have attendances of greater than 23% membership. ICC attendance average movement wide is 59% of membership. (N.B. with Kips' claims by July 1995 (14 months) : 221 churches with more than 85,000 members and attendances over 137,000 should be the result.) My assumption is that the growth rate claimed in August is the same as May, and that the growth is constant. AS you can see the ICC claim can't get it's figures to match up). 1996 ICC web page accessed 23/3/96 242 churches claimed nearly 90 countries worldwide. Attendance of more than 120,000 claimed. NO membership quoted. (Given the quote about attendence to membership above this gives a membership of around 75,000) (A massive slow down in growth from mid 1995 - 8 months or so earlier, and an even greater slowdown fronm that claimed in 1994) (KNN was introduced to replace Upside Down. Due to the nature of this video, details are flashed on the screen for a second and figures quoted, no permanent record can be kept. However the graph is always growing up and the growth quoted is high. In February 1995 it was anounced at a service that world wide attendance was 80,000. In June 1995 it was anounced at a service that world wide attendance was 75,000. Then a KNN video stated that world wide attendance was a record breaking 80,000. 14) In his Evangelism Proclamation Kip claims that "there exist 160 Countries with a city of at least 100,00 people. Disciples are in only 49.... to plant churches in the remaining 111 nations by the year 2000. Let us reach the remaining small, unevangelised nations early in the next millenium" Why discriminate against those countries on the basis of population size in their cities, surely they are as worthy, maybe even more needy for christianity ? 15) In his Evangelism Proclamation February 1994 Kip claims that "Seven Years ago (1987) came the first of the reconstructions. At the request of leaders in mainline churches, the elders and evangelists of the Boston Movement sent trained preachers into these congregations to call out more of the remnant". In his Restoration through Restoration I April 1992 Kip states " In late 1986...First we would ask the interested church's lead minister to move to Boston to be discipled and further trained. We replaced them with a Boston trained evangelist to serve the church." I would like to know which version is correct ? 16) An Unethical Practise Question from Guard the Gospel : Sin Study " Where would you go if you died tonight ? Of course the honest answer is 'I'm in the darkness - I'm lost." If the person says he thinks he is right with God, you may : i) Challenge him directly, asking what makes him sure. ii) hold off, in the case of a very religious person who is fairly committed ( and perhaps has even had a 'conversion experience' and dealt with the more obvious sins) and convict him on the repentance study or iii) reply candidly, 'I doubt that very much' in the case of someone who is obviously involved with sin. Go back and explain from the verses you studied" Is this teaching practise valid ? 17) An Unethical Practise Question from Guard the Gospel : Repentance study. Tips for the Repentance study " Don't go directly into a baptism study ! NT teaching on baptism is not logically intuitive" Is this advice valid ? 18) An Unethical Practise Question from Guard the Gospel : Repentance study. "Are you eager to do the will of God, or do you have to be coaxed ? Do you have God's attitude towards sin ? A radical aversion ? (All three questions must be answered in the positive in order for someone to have repented)" Is this Boston Movement definition of repentance valid ? 19) An Unethical Practise Question from Guard the Gospel : Repentance study. "' Do you think you have repented in accordance with what the Bible teaches ?' We are looking for a 'No' answer. If someone claims to have repented, ask when.... If he says that he repented a long time ago , or that that he has no need to repent, go over the study again; he has missed it. Be sure to ask, for there are precious few religious people (even the committed ones) who have repented." Is this judgement valid : Only Boston Movement members repent ? 20) An Unethical Practise Question from Guard the Gospel : Repentance study. "' How many people do you know who have truely repented ?' If someone thinks that most people have repented, he has not a clue about whta you've taught him. If he thinks that most people back in his old church have repented, again, he has missed the point. Back up until he gets it right ! Be sure to ask him where his freinds and family stand !" Is this judgement valid : Only Boston Movement members have repented correctly ? 21) An Unethical Practise Question from Guard the Gospel : The Church study 'Do not miss church... Must come to all Services'. Is this a matter of personal choice or not ? 22) An Strange Definition Question from Guard the Gospel : The Church study " Denomination = a group of a name. Unscriptural according to 1 Cor 1:10-13 Examples : Lutheran ........ From Martin Luther Methodist .......From John and Charles Wesley Presbyterian ...From John Calvin & John Knox Mormon .........From Joseph Smith Catholic..........Tradition through the ages" A nice touch I think putting Mormons in the group. Apart from asking how many millions of christians would feel about being told that they are not christians as they belong to something that is unscriptural, I fail to see how this actually relates to the biblical text ? 23) In the Guard the Gospel timeline it states "1979 Multiplying Ministries Movement initiated by Kip McKean" Yet in Revolution through Restoration II (pg 14) a wordy and confusing dialogue is attempted to distant the ICC from it's involvement here. Why is one past okay in 1991, yet not in 1994. 24) In December 1993, a zone leader of the Sydney Church of Christ stated that " We are very aware of the cult label. We spend a lot of time preparing our sermons so that they are not wrongly interpreted by others" What exactly did he mean by this ? 25) Sydney Church of Christ Failed 1994 Goal list. Item 1 Increase Disciples by 40%. " After Revival in January last year (1993) , we started in February with 406 disciples ending with 542, an increase of 33%. Our goal for 1994 is to have a 40% growth (760 members) with an average attendance of 1100 by the end of 1994). Result : Failure - a 29/1/95 bulletin puts attendance as 678. (550 members average 725 attendees a ratio of about 1.3) Attendance did not even reach the level of members expected. Even now attandance barely reaches 750+. Remember children are counted too. And this is a church that evidences grace by phenonenal growth ? 26) Sydney Church of Christ Acheived 1994 Goal list. Establish a medical centre at 3 Mile Village in Papua & New Guinea. Result : Acheived. But at what cost. Weekly rent of the two bedroom home for the doctor & his wife AUD 675-00. Clinic & medical supplies extra. Every fortnight staff movements occur with persons being flown to and from the clinic and Australia. Average cost of a return flight excess AUD $1000-00. Additional note in February 1995, the Sydney Evangalist Fred Scott decreed that as well as a general poor contribution, tithe, and special contribution; every member of the Sydney Congregation would have to pay an additional $5/week to support this centre. A member of the team was injured during a discipling incident with a PNG native. What is really going on, and at what cost ? 27) Sydney Church of Christ Failed 1994 Goal list. Learn every song in the Songbook " Songs of the Kingdom". Result : Well I shall leave that to you to guess. Why have such an unacheiveable goal ? 28) Sydney Church of Christ Failed 1994 Goal list Give $17500-00 per week. " Our contribution has grown consistantly during 1993 and we are budgeting a 30% increase from $13350 (AUD 25-00)/week to $17500 (AUD 25-00)/week. Result : well the January 1995 collections were around AUD 13500-00, and the December 1994 collections were around AUD 13200-00. Financial overspending in mid year occurred as in 1992. Apart from seeing a dynamic failure in growth here carry through financially; Why budget and spend money you are not going to get, and treat people harshly to raise funds ? 29) Sydney Church of Christ 1994 Goal list. $192,000 Special Contribution for Missions. " Every year, we have the priviledge of giving a Special Contribution for Missions. Our goal this year is to exceed AUD 192,000." Result : Unknown. Since this goal was based on numbers growth from 542 members to 760 members, and this fell well below expectation.; Did people had to dig further into their pockets to meet the unrealistic goals the leaders had set ? 30) Sydney Church of Christ Failed 1994 Goal list. Plan for New Zones. " Our goal is to have three new zones. The Central Zone, South West, and South Zones". Result : Failed. ( It was stated that to be a Zone leader you had to find 20 people to make your own Zone). Jan 1994 started with 8 Zones. (the Uni Zone had been broken up just recently) Central, East, North, Northern Beaches, Teens, West, Outer West, and Chinese. Dec1994 they ended with 3 Regions and 6 Zones. South Region ( Central & East Zones) North Region (North & Beaches Zones) and West Region (West and Teens Zone). Please explain how this is an example of grace through growth ? 31) Sydney Church of Christ 1994 Goal list. New Interns " To have full time interns for a future Uni Zone." Result : Unknown To me having just scrapped the Uni Zone, and castigated it's leaders for failure, amalgamating the Uni students into regional zones, and then try to rebuild then sounds a bit strange ? 32) Sydney Church of Christ 1994 Goal list. We plan to appoint one more Evangelist and three Womens Ministry Leaders in 1994. Result : Unknown Well Johnathon Harris was made an Evangalist in February 1995 and his wife a WML. He was sent down to Melbourne to lead the church there. I beleive it is the May KNN, has him still leading the Church there; even though he was replaced by Mike Vassallo, for failing, unfortunately again. Apart from being unable to find the Greek translation for Women's Ministry Leader in the Bible, I would like to ask why continue lying on KNN about this ? 33) Sydney Church of Christ Failed 1994 Goal list. New Church planting In 1994 we plan to plant a new church in Noumea. Result : Assumed failed. No public record to my knowledge of this occuring was made. In all summaries of the local area churches Noumea was not mentioned. Why was this not attempted ? 34) Sydney Church of Christ Failed 1994 Goal list. Arts Media Zone Creation Result : Official failure. Not listed in official zone summary in December 1994 or January 1995. The glossy colour pamphlet "Spirit of Sydney" January 1995 announced it's creation in January 1995 with 2 leaders and 8 other members in a one page spread. The "Spirit of Sydney" February 1995 also announced it's creation in a repeat article. The "Spirit of Sydney" July 1995 had no mention of it. I could not locate anyone who was a member. I guess it died a silent death. Why go through all this trouble ? 35) Why was the poor collection routinely used to pay leaders' credit card bills, and costs of leaders trips to overseas locations ? 36) In 1993 Emily Bobbitt (apologies if name spelt wrong) came to Sydney Australia, from America to become Mark Maguire's girlfreind. Her relationship did not last long. Why when here visa was running out was she quickly married off to Craig Nicholson ? 37) During the Gulf War I was part of a discussion, headed by the Central Zone leader. I was horrified to find that he was arguing for brothers to be given rifles and sent to Iraq, to shoot Iraquis. The reason for this was the Iraqui's were Moslem and not God's people and should be shot because they were infidels. Is this proper conduct for a Christian church ? 38) Why are some tapes labled as 'leader tapes' and forbidden to be heard or purchased by normal ICC members ? 39) Why in a sermon on Faith were we told two separate definitions of Faith. i) Faith = Deeds ii) Faith is 'how many people you convert" How can this be explained biblically, also which one do they want us to use ? 40) Why would Kip McKean, and fellow ICC leaders not meet to discuss their 'biblical teachings' on record (taped) with their critics, as the bible tells us too ? 41) Why when I tried to press forward with this idea was i) I discouraged at every angle ? ii) I was told Kyle Degge could not meet Kip McKean as " he would not talk to Mike Fontinot ". iii) I was told James Lloyd could not meet Kip McKean as he was 'a bit loose', 'lax in character' 'but that's just the way he is'. (I will not discuss this further sufficient to say his character was assassinated) iv) I was told Jerry Jones could not meet Kip McKean as he 'peddled spiriual pornography'. v) I was told Daniel Eng could not meet Kip McKean as he 'was bitter about a dating problem' (I will not discuss this further sufficient to say his character was assassinated) vi) I was told Emma Hodgkins could not talk to Kip McKean 'as she has been deprogrammed' Firstly is the above avoidance of the issue by character assassination valid ? Secondly what type of biblical judgement system is being used ? 42) In February 1994 the Sydney ICC leaders accepted that there had been 150,000 people who had left the ICC. This was explained as " Some people we destined to fall away, there was no way of knowing who. These people had made the choice to follow Jesus knowing what they were getting themselves in for (they were warned) and then went ahead and abandoned God due to the sin in their life. Even if they had been wronged they should stay and suffer, it was their choice to leave. They had abandoned God so basically it was their choice." The ICC leaders accepted no responsibility or accountability; for any problems damage or actions suffered by any ex member. Apart from finally getting them to acknowledge that at the time they had 40,000 members worldwide at this time and 150,000 ex-members; How can this be a christian act ? 43) In 1994, when I refused to desist in my quest for answers to questions concerning ICC practices and ethics I was taken aside by an ICC Zone leader, and later by a member and offered the following : i) The lure of relaxed rule enforcement ii) The bribe of a girlfreind iii) The agreement on part of my tithe going to an non-ICC charity iv) Permission to be with ex-ICC members v) Permission to talk with ex-ICC members vi) Approval to miss the compulsory Tuesday Bible discussion & Thursday Evangelism and Friday Prayer devotionals, due to work commitments. When referring to my association with ex-members " I can be a powerful force for God, if you have nothing to do with these people. The leaders will not trust you unless they see a sign of your commitment to God by having nothing to do with these people. I can help build the church into an awesome force for God if I just repent and become fully focussed on God. I can help change the church into a place where legalism is no more and the Grace of God is such an unbeleivable motivating force. I must not let sentimentality stand in the way of God." Could Kip please explain these actions and what is going on here ? 44) I was told by the same Zone leader that ' One of the reasons we have financial problems is that the church has better uses for it's money than bailing out failing brother's households'. What type of use was he talking about ? 45) Why did the Sydney ICC break the law, on numerous occassions, and to my understanding still does, by refusing to hand over the possessions of people leaving or who had left unless tithing and other payments and contributions were made ? (Under Australian Law is is illegal to do so even for back rent collection too) 46) In March 1994 a House church sermon stated " Jesus was heard because of the way he prayed " and "if you are not praying the right way then your prayers will not be answered, and the church will not be growing as a result" Could you explain this please ? 47) In the same sermon as above it was also stated " If we pray like John Wesley's churches did" (insert examples of massive growth here) " then we will grow" Could you explain this please ? 48) A Valid Challenge Question : We were instructed to Tell your boss " I'm going to stay up all night praying and you see how well I work tomorrow ?" Could you explain this please ? 49) A Valid Challenge Question : We were instructed to Tell our lecturer the day before the exam " I'm not going to study. I'm going to stay up all night and pray before my exams" Could you explain this please ? 50) A Valid statement Question : We were told the longer we prayer the more spiritual we were. At one time were were told/advised a Zone leader to pray for 5 or 6 hours a night. Could you explain this please ? 51) Why did an ICC Evangelist preach in sermons that Jesus's commands are not commands but really orders and must be obeyed " We obey Jesus's orders"? Could you go back to the greek and explain that for me here ? 52) In refering to finances an ICC Zone leader preached the following : " God gave it to you, let's give it all away", " We should show our gratitude and give it all away" Could you explain this please ? 53) In a sermon on finances it was preached that "God has given us our finances - we must give our finances to God" and " It's not your money, it's Gods money, he only gave it to you to see what you would do with it" Could you explain this for me please ? 54) In the above sermon we were also told " The image you present when evangelising when our finances are not in order is not good and this needs to change" (examples followed including petrol money/food in house/phone bills) and a comment about what sort of an image do people see if we are slack in this area ? Could someone point to me the area in the bible about selling Christianity, or image ? 55) In a sermon the ICC Evangelist preached when joking about issues of mind control that had been raised " Maybe Jesus was into Mind Control". He later commented when faced with Lifton's 8 Criteria, that if what the church practised mind control then it must have been in the bible. Could you explain this for me. ? 56) In the same sermon the fact that a sister of the ICC had a talent for art was ridiculed and fishing was promoted as a christian hobby than art. Why does the ICC consider fishing a more christian hobby that art ?. What right do they have to make this decision ? 57) Why were we told that Weekly discipleship time was to be cumpolsory ? (This was a once a week event where we went out with our discipler) 58) Why were we told that Thursday night Evangelism was compulsory ? 59) A Theological Question : In a sermon we were told " Knowledge of God is less important than direction you go". Could you explain that for me ? 60) When talking about mind control, the ICC Evangelist stated " Do not compare a man-made list to our church" and when talking about people being tired and exhausted and needing rest " when does God take a holiday". Could you explian this please ? 61) Why did an ICC Zone leader state that when I said I was not going to abandon my freinds that I was performing a nor biblical action . Could Kip please show me where in the bible I am to abandon my freinds (ex members who had left and were in need) ? 62) When told that I would not abandon my freinds I was told " That I must let them go out into the world so that can burn in the fires of hell, and come to realize that they never had it so good, ". Could someone please explain how this equates ? 63) Why does the ICC leadership continually intrude upon people's personal relationship's. ( I have many examples, which I will not print here due to personal choice) such as engineering breakup of dating relationships or male-female freindships ? 64) Why was the person charged with procuring my recruitment into the ICC, told by an ICC Zone leader to " use any means to get me in". (His quotation here) ? 65) I was told by an ICC Zone leader, and another that the average membership time for a member of the ICC was 2 years. Is this what Christianity has become, a 2 year life expectancy ? 66) I was told by an ICC Zone leader, that 90 % of people who join the ICC leave. Would Kip care to comment on this ? 67) A simple question, why are baptism figures no longer publically stated ? 68) I was told by Douglas Arthur that he kicked someone out of the ICC because they were sick and had had an attitude; the guy complained that when he was sick no-one rang. I would like Kip's comment on this one ? 69) ICC leaders have stated that before the ICC came to Australia there were no Christians in Australia. Could someone run that by me again ? 70) When I asked what happened to the Israelites who died in the old testament I was told by an ICC Zone leader that "NONE of them made it to heaven". Further explanation ensued in which it was explained that they went to hell. They died before Jesus came, and were acting as christians should act : they were not ICC members. Apart from being in direct confrontation with Romans 4, as I understand it could someone explain this to me ? 71) Kip states that (Revolution through Restoration V1) "I have never believed or taught that anyone has to be baptised into the Boston Church of Christ to be saved". Kip also says (Revolution through Restoration V1) " However I know of no other church, group or movement that teaches and practises what we teach as Jesus taught in Matthew 28:18-20 - one must make the decision to be a disciple, then be baptised for the forgiveness of their sins to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit" Kip also says (Revolution through Restoration V2) " I know of no church, no fellowship, no movement, that teaches and practises these biblical requirements of obedience to the truth" (when referring to the people of the world) Kip also says (Revolution through Restoration V2) " Only baptised disciples are are members of the true church". We were taught only members of the ICC were true christians. They even held classes to show us how each of the non-ICC religions (Baptist, Mormon, Catholic, etc) were not christians, and how to recruit them. How can Kip's first statement about his teachings be valid given his definititions that everyone else failed the biblical test; AND what we were taught ? STATEMENT : The ICC requires rebaptism from members who join from other churches who have already been baptised. Kip McKean was baptised in 1972 on April 11th. Randy McKean was baptised in 1973. At this time they were both part of, and Kip preached as part of a church that had the standard orthodox requirements for Christianity without any reference to his present day teachings. ICC doctrine now teaches, it was 'rediscovered' around 1979 and preached around 1985 that one must be a disciple to be baptised . If you were not a disciple before baptism then your baptism was invalid. 72) Is Kip McKean's original baptism valid, given that he has never been rebaptised ? 73) Randy McKean in 1986 baptised his daughter. He later baptised his wife in Boston shortly after. In 1991 he rebaptised his daughter. Who has had a valid baptism in this family ? 74) Why does the ICC claim that it's doctrine on baptism has never changed ? 75) Bob Gempel was baptised in 1979 before Kip McKean arrived at the Boston Church. He has never been rebaptised. Was his baptism valid ? 76) Pat Gempel was baptised in her teens at a conventional Church of Christ, before she met her husband. She has never been rebaptised. Was her baptism valid ? 77) Douglas Arthur, James Lloyd, & Douglas Jacoby in 1987 published a book "Shining like Stars" in it they wrote " Baptism is for those who want to be disciples". This book is contrary to what the ICC now teaches, or said they taught from 1979 onwards. What is going on here ? 78) In October 1987 Al Baird gave a different version of who a christian was from Kip's teachings now. I would like an explanation of this please ? 79) What is the new Testament justification for Reconstruction of a church ? 80) We were explained, by Douglas Arthur that in the reconstruction the church membership was reduced to zero, and we had some questions to answer. After we made it through we would be members again. Please provide biblical basis for this ? 81) Three of the four questions were : i) I confess to being lukewarm. ii) The Boston Movement is the only true church. iii) There is some sin I have not repented of that has caused my failure (in some cases I have caused the Sydney Church of Christ to fail this year in it's growth ). Could someone explain the justification and validity of this ? 82) Kip writes in Revolution through Restoration V2 " Opposition arose because the multiplication of our churches threatened the validity of those who had praised us. The implication became : if the Boston Churches were of God, their own churches were not. They drew this implication which, in retrospect was true" Another comment about only One true Church Kip ? 83) The ICC history apart from being constantly rewritten, always seems to leave out people who once were in high positions, and have later left the Movement. When history is rewritten they are conveniently removed. ( I could name many examples here) What is the justification for this ? 84)The ICC constantly justifies that it is THE ONLY movement of God by having phenomenal growth. In Revolution through Restoration V2 Kip refers to numbers and hype all through in his chapter titled "Evidence of Grace : Growth" An unpublished report on the Early Boston Church's growth is as follows 1986 17% 1987 23% 1988 26% 1989 10% 1990 minus 5%. In 1991 after this report was published an elder of the Boston Church, Gordon Ferguson preached " Now there are 100 churches in the discipling movement right now growing at 45 to 50%." ( In 1991 the number of churches went from 77 to 103 so he is talking about all of the churches here). The above figures don't match do they? 85) ( a summary of documentary evidence) In the period 1989 to 1991 ( 2 years) The ICC/Boston Movement did the following Went from 21,254 to 37,604 members. Grew by 16,350 members Baptised 39,986 persons 59% of the people baptised in this period left Yet Kip McKean has claimed a 90% 1 year retention rate, and a 70% historical retention rate Why do these figures not add up Kip ? 86) In March 1986 Kip preached in Gainesville " In closing we realise the scriptures stress by example the autonomy of each congregation" In the Acts study series he wrote " Now we understand this, churches are autonomous" In September 1987 he taught " autonomy is something we were taught, but were never shown a verse on" Current ICC doctrine states that churches are not autonomous. Kip which is correct ? 87) In 1992 we were told the Sydney ICC was in dire financial trouble. We had been so lax in our tithing that the church was $30,000 in debt. (This was from budgeting a growth from 700 to over a thousand and actually losing people).The Evangelist had even taken out a mortgage on his house to support the church. Every male member of the church was told to pay $200 by a Zone Leader. Given 500 members at the time ( a conservative number), and 1/2 male (again conservative actual ratio probably 70% male) this would have raised $ 50,000 to $70,000. I never really found out where the money went. Could you answer that one for me ? 88) Why do ICC leaders stay in 3 & 4 star hotels around the world when they travel, and the ICC rank and file must stay in brothers & sisters flats ? 89) Why do ICC members reguarly open and read the mail and diaries of other members ? 90) I was taught in the ICC that child baptism is invalid, the person to be baptised must be a disciple and therefore old enough to understand the commitment they are going through, ie a minimum of 17-18 years old. Why does the ICC practise child baptism, especially on the children of elders or high ranking leaders ? 91) I was taught in the ICC that an Elder of the Church had to have ALL his children as Christians; ie members of the ICC AND Baptised. Why are eldership positions created when these criteria fail ? (I could name an elder or two who does not meet this criteria) 92) In 1994 a sermon was given in which a Zone leader stated we'd rather be known for our works than Grace anyday. Could you explain this please ? 93) In 1992 I was taught that Jesus would return to the world when every person in the world had been asked to an ICC meeting. IN 1994 this had changed to Jesus would return when every person in the world had had the opportunity to be asked to an ICC meeting. (Note pressure placed on ICC member if he does not ask everyone he meets, they could lose their only chance at Salvation. ) Could you explain the real story ? 94) The ICC have constantly claimed that their errors and problems have been dealt with (Refer Al Bairds article on Authority in Upside Down Magazine Issue 2 1992.) yet their teachings continually avoid this point. Authority is still taught that the way that Al Baird says it is not. Leadership is still abusing the right' s of individuals in this area. I.e. in 1993 I was thrown out of the ICC and marked because I would not do what a Zone leader ordered in a matter of opinion and charity. This is my personal story. In 1993/4 I came across many examples from people I knew still within the movement. Lessons were taught in 1994 that confirmed the authoritarian right of leaders to have their instruction streated as ORDERS and obeyed in all cases. I would like a comment from Kip on this ? 95) Why does Kip not preach to non-members when he goes on trips around the world ? 96) Is it not true, Kip that you once preached at a conference that the problem with authority was not that we did not have authority as leaders, but we did not use the authority that we did have as leaders ? 97) Why will Kip McKean not answer any questions put to him by anyone about the ICC inconsistancies ?. (Just thought I would throw this in for luck) 98) IN a discussion in 1994 I was told by a Zone leader, that the ICC prides itself on it's ability to be devisive and by any means possible gain converts from other churches. Could you explain this please ? 99) Devisiveness is only written once in the bible, it talks about one who promotes Christian untruths.Why are all people called 'devisive' when they talk to ICC members about what they have discovered, in any matter ? 100) I would like to know what went wrong, how GRACE turned into grace, and how numbers, money and prussian military authoritarianism became the order of the day. I beleive the ICC started out with the Power of LOVE, but soon became a society where a phobic 'keep the law' and 'numbers are everything/ means justifies the end philosophy. Where did it all go wrong Kip ? (I know I have got buckleys of getting an answer but what the heck....) 101) : I know of persons who were beaten up, or had cold water thrown on them whilst in bed within the ICC because they would not get up in the morning. I know of people who were threatened that if they did not toe the line their sins would be spread around for everyone to know. I know of a person who escaped having her hand put on a burning hot-plate on a stove because she wanted to leave, I know of physical violence being offered to persons to enforce unpopular discipleship decisions, I know of people being threatened that if they were rebellious they would be tossed out onto the streets with nothing, I know of private possessions being taken and sold without the owners consent to cover contributions and rent, I know of parents being cut off from their children, because the ICC has convinced the child that their parents are agents of Satan. I know of people suffering metal illness and being denied treatment. I know of mentally ill patients being forced off their medication, at disciplers' instructions. They even sold life insurance, to a schiziphrenic paranoid delusional mental ill patient. I won't go into the sexual immorality that resulted in some cases. Mine are just a tip of the iceburg.... A convenient excuse that it is some undealtwith sin the the person's life that is responsible. (I thought Jesus dealt with that not US) A convenient excuse that the person responsible did not have enough training. A numbers is everything philosophy, whatever the cost. A belief that if you leave the ICC you are leaving GOD. A beleif that people leave because it is THEIR fault, some undealt with sin, not the system, for the system is never wrong. (Remember : only one person lived a sin free life Jesus) I also know of people being driven in desparation to suicide, and attempted suicide after 'leaving' the ICC. I ask you KIP, this is what your church has become, was it worth it ? 102 to 1001 Pick 999 of the persons baptised in 1992 here in Australia. How many of them have been spiritually, mentally & emotionally damaged by the ICC ? I could ask wheather you care but your leaders here have told me that they don't. I was told you baptised 1000 odd people in 1992. You also went from 700 to 452 post reconstruction. I know of one girl who may still be with you, but other than that everyone I knew baptised in that year has gone...... What does this say about this 'Modern Day movement of GOD' Kip ? WRITTEN IN MID 1995 Paranoia is useful when they are out to get you..... It keeps you alive longer... The problem with paranoia is that it makes you think you are important enough to worth the trouble to persecute in the first place.