From hinves@world.net Sat Oct 26 08:42:24 1996 Received: from world.net (sydney2.world.net [198.142.12.2]) by shellx.best.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) with ESMTP id FAA26746 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 05:41:29 -0700 Received: from hinves (sydney42.world.net [192.190.215.42]) by world.net (8.7.4/8.6.6) with SMTP id WAA10516 for ; Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:42:50 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19961026124635.00699b78@world.net> X-Sender: hinves@world.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 22:46:35 +1000 To: ariel@best.com From: Martin Hinves Subject: Baptism Part 2 In my 1991 Guard the Gospel the ICC teaching manual (pre - 1st Principles) in the Discipleship study it states the following. 6. Matthew 28 18-20 A. Command - make disciples (given to all) B. Who is a candidate for baptism ? Disciples C. You need someone to disciple you to maturity in Christ 7. Conclusion Questions 1. Am I a disciple ? 2. Am I am Christian ? 3. Am I saved ? 4. What do I need to do to become a disciple. Here is written evidence that the ICC required in 1991 that a person be a disciple before baptism. Kip McKean has preached the following in 1987 "For a long time in the Church of Christ and those that were raised in it (I appreciate that background and you need to) have been taught, dare we say it, the five point plan of salvation - hear , believe, repent, confess, and be baptized. Though I believe in that because I believe in the word of God, I believe an essential element has not been emphasized in the area of repentance. In fact ,it was the primary area that Jesus emphasized about this baptism. In Matthew 28:19 when Jesus appeared to the eleven on the mount before he ascended he said 'Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them (there they are) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey my Father's commands'. I really believe, sisters, we need to get it straight who is a candidate for baptism. It is the individual who is a disciple. You say "Well, now, brother, that's not been taught through the years so often in the church of Christ." What does the book say ? You say " Well, now, brother, we didn't even use that terminology back in the days at Crossroads." What does the book say ? I think we also need to certainly appreciate our heritage without question and roots in the Lord's church , the church of Christ. But I think we also need to appreciate our roots in the Crossroads church. But you've got to understand that we are a process of restoration. The Holy spirit is working and it is not new truths that are being discovered but old truths are becoming clearer. There is a difference. Jesus said, Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them. A lot of people in the church of Christ say 'Well we can't get along with you folks because your methodology is different'. That's the word. Listen, I am seeing there is a lot more than methodology that is different. There has become an innate doctrinal difference but they don't recognize it because it looks like a methodology. Our working with people to baptism and counting the cost they think is a methodology. I think not. It is a scriptural imperative. If it is a scriptural imperative, then it is not a humanistic methodology it is a command that we must obey. Then the bible says after they are baptized (and you only baptise disciples) then you are to teach them to obey everything the Lord has commanded. Why do people who come into our fellowships have so much struggle when they come on in ? Is it because we are just weird acting? We expect too much ? Or we've added things to the scriptures ? I think not. I think they are uncomfortable when they come on in because they have never been disciples in the first place. You see what happens is after a period of weeks and months, maybe even years, in our fellowship they get hammered around enough they eventually become disciples, but just for the first time have they become disciples. They think "Well I'm okay because I was baptized to get saved many years ago". Let me tell you something, if you have struggled to come into our friendships and even now you're a high powered sister, I praise God that you are a disciple. But all the commitment in the world and even being a disciple does not save you. You must respond to Jesus with the commitment of a disciple and then only then can you be baptized to be saved. A lot of people ask questions, "Why have some of the sisters been rebaptised ?" Let me tell you something. No-one has been rebaptised around here. Not a single person has been re-baptized around here. I believe in only one baptism. Here a doctrinal change occurs in the ICC teaching. Not only must one be a disciple before baptism, but you must have responded with the commitment of a disciple before baptism Kip is arguing that if you were baptized previously you baptism did not count because you were not a disciple before baptism, and you did not responded with the commitment of a disciple before baptism. Your first baptism is invalid - it was not really a baptism; therefore no-one is rebaptised. On December 20 1987 Elena McKean wrote the following article in the Boston Bulletin. "Too few churches call people to make the decision to be disciples at baptism (Matthew 28:19). Jesus says if you have not done this your baptism is invalid. Many people from the church of Christ are deceived. Only baptized disciples will be willing to go anywhere, do anything, and give up everything for the cause of winning the world for a few of the lies Satan spread about the critical area of salvation." Again doctrine has changed to baptized disciples. On May 17th 1989 Al Baird was interviewed on radio in Boston. He stated " I was rebaptised in April of 1987" . In September 1987 Al Baird preached a sermon discussing the rebaptism issue entitled "Go Baptise Disciples Only" in which he stated " Now you may ask "Why do we have as many quote rebaptisms as we do? Number one, I don't think there is any such thing as rebaptism." Here you have Al Baird admitting he was rebaptised 2 years ago, yet when he teaches a sermon on Baptism 5 months after his rebaptism, never refers to his rebaptism. His rebaptism in fact was kept hidden by the church and never refereed to publically, or in a church publication for 10 months. On May 29 1988 Gordon Furgeson expressed his view about baptism in the Boston Bulletin. " For years, I have been puzzled by "christians" who were resistant to sharing their faith and to doing other things taught in the New Testament. I am no longer puzzled. Either these people never became disciples, or they quit being disciples. In either case they are not saved. Calling ourselves 'Christians" or "members of the church" means nothing. If we are not doing what disciples are commanded to do we are not saved. And my personal conviction is that many of those in 'churches of Christ' have never biblically repented, have never become disciples and thus are not Christians. A large number of people, including me, have faced the issue and have been baptized with a true disciple's repentance. Here not only does Gordon express the view that unless we are not doing what disciples are commanded to do we are not saved (ie preaching salvation through works) but advocates only his new baptism is valid. He had to get rebaptised because he was not a disciple at his first baptism. Joe Garmon during a church reconstruction preached the following " People in the churches of Christ who have not been discipled first and then baptized are not saved... we believe that those who have left here have left the church- have left the Lord. And we believe the churches of Christ in general do not teach, do not preach, do not believe in - as a matter of fact oppose - the doctrine of making disciples before baptism. And that because of that the vast majority of people in the church of christ are not saved. Again we have the new theme of a person must be a disciple before baptism, along with the now rational deduction that if you were not a disciple before baptism, your baptism is invalid, and you are not saved. I was amazed that this change had occurred and I had never been told about it. It was one of those things that you would never think to ask, I mean how could you know without being told. You are supposed to trust implicitly you discipler within the ICC. In all my time in the ICC and all the questions I raised, never was I even hinted at that baptism doctrine had changed. I was led to believe it had always been and always had been the same. When it was discovered that I had been hastily recruited and not really known about the need to be a disciple before baptism, no commotion was made. I was just thrown into classes like everyone else. I then began to read the recent Restoration through Revolution articles written by Kip McKean. I was concerned at how they changed from version 1 to Version 2. I also read the following. Restoration through Revolution 1 After writing about the 30 would be disciples (Para 14) that Friday night Kip then goes on to say (para 16) "Early on I developed a series consisting of nine bible studies on the "first principles" (Hebrews 6: 1-3). the members of the church were called to memorize these studies and then teach others to become christians. The most impacting was called "Discipleship" where from my study of scripture I taught what was clear in Acts 11:26. SAVED = CHRISTIAN = DISCIPLE, simply meaning you cannot be saved and you cannot be a true christian without being a disciple also. I purposely developed this study to draw a sharp biblical distinction between the Lexington (later renamed Boston) Church of Christ and all other groups. I taught that to be baptized, you must first make the decision to be a disciple and then be baptized. I saw people in and out of our fellowship had been baptized without this understanding and then, in time developed a disciple's commitment to make Jesus Lord of their life. I taught that their baptism was invalid because of a retroactive understanding of repentance and baptism was not consistent with scripture. Upon conviction by the scriptures most people in the Lexington (Boston) church of Christ were rebaptised." Two paragraphs (para 18) later he begins to talk about the events in the 4th year of existence, 1982. The whole article is descriptions over the history of the ICC over time. !979 events are before 1980 etc. As you read you follow the events of the church year by year. By placing this article in paragraph 16 the impression, is that Kip's teaching about baptism, the rebaptisms occurring and important doctrinal points were made back in 1979 when Kip started the Boston Church of Christ. He even states "I purposely developed this study to draw a sharp biblical distinction between the Lexington (later renamed Boston) Church of Christ and all other groups." Yet in 1979 the Boston Church of Christ was not teaching these doctrines. Yet in 1979 Al Baird had not been rebaptised. Kip did not begin teaching his new doctrine until about mid 1986/7 - 7 years later Gloria Baird was rebaptised in October 1986. Al Baird was rebaptised in April of 1987. An incorrect impression is given in the article, indeed a deliberate mis-information is done in that the time of the doctrinal change is never mentioned. I know I and thousands of others, read this article, and assumed that the doctrine had always been the same today as it was in 1979. We were, I believe deliberately deceived. Finally I decided to have a look at the baptism figures for the ICC. Here I ran into a problem. Around 1989 they stopped reporting baptisms. I found this disturbing as it seemed to indicate that there were retention problems. Membership numbers only were produced... then the membership numbers stopped being specific and began to be general and attendance numbers were exposed. To me this indicates that the ICC is afraid to state it's members and baptisms. I have read reports from the ICC that have not been released to publically that show net retention rates (members + baptisms- leavings) as very low. In 1990 for instance this was -5%. As I have written before, if I am in error then I seek correction. I wish to learn from this search into the past and study of the bible. Martin Hinves Ex member Sydney Church of Christ Email hinves@world.net Postal address 1/14 First Avenue Eastwood Paranoia is useful when they are out to get you..... It keeps you alive longer... The problem with paranoia is that it makes you think you are important enough to worth the trouble to persecute in the first place.