From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Chris Lee) Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.boston-church Subject: Re: Trinity and ICC Date: 30 Sep 1997 05:02:07 GMT Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology Message-ID: <60q14f$nmh@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
-> Note that Kip calls himself a prophet and encourages other leaders to do the same.
-> Note that Kip thinks all other denominations (and religions) are lost
"Preach the Word"
(The 10 Commandments of Preaching)
Johannesburg World Leadership Conference
Segment transcribed by J. Ruhland
(and commentary too)
October 1995, January 1996
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. . .
"These words, almost 40 years later, are prophetic as the once seemingly insurmountable walls of apartheid, have been obliterated. Truth has prevailed. Nelson Mandela's synergizing, heroic leadership has inspired the countless thousands of unnamed courageous to shed their blood for a dream only their orphaned children will live.
"Today, we, the leaders in the modern day movement of God gather in this historic land where we can inhale, with every breath, this invigorating spirit of revolution against overwhelming darkness. I call upon each and every one of us in these five days of Jubilee that ends Sunday in Soweto, to make at least three decisions that will radically change your life. Upon returning home, humbly share these convictions, and preach your church to revolution. Then united and refreshed by repentance, God's pillar of fire, the Holy Spirit, will lead us through the darkest of hours in our galactic struggle, not simply to change the laws of a country but to literally change the course of human events in every nation, and because of Jesus, eternity.
"Let us pray. Our Father, we feel so inadequate for the task, and yet Father, we know that your Spirit is with us now. We know the prayers of the saints are reaching up into heaven at this moment from the churches back home. That Father, you are **feeling greater strength because of the prayer cover that's come over this city.
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I have difficulty with Kip and other leaders' ascribing human attributes to God which, in effect, deny aspects of his deity. What does Kip mean when he says God the Father is "feeling greater strength?"
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The angels have been rallied, our churches will be protected, but Heavenly Father we just pray that your Holy Spirit will convict us of where we fall short of Jesus. Change us individually, let us put aside our facades, if we have done good, let us be humble. . . .
**Father, our prayer is simple: break us, melt us, mold us into your prophets and prophetesses. Change us, so we can change our churches, so we can change our world in this generation. It's in the name of Jesus we pray, amen.
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Here Kip refers to the leaders being prophets and prophetesses. This is problematic.
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I can be just Kip, not the leader of the movement, . . .
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Now passion doesn't have to be loud. Passion can be soft, but there is an intensity **of the heart that the true prophet of God has to communicate when he gets up to preach, in season or out, whether he feels like it or whether he doesn't. Whether there are a lot of non-Christians or whether there aren't. Whether the disciples are cranking or whether they aren't. There's gotta be passion.
. . .True prophet??? Must be passion, whether or not he feels like it . . . ! Sounds like the Holy Spirit is taking a back seat!
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**At this very hour, Christianity is being defined in mainland China. At this very hour it is being defined in outer Mongolia. At this very hour, Christianity is being defined in Russia. Religious history is being made. Turn to 1 Corinthians, chapter two . . .
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Hmmm -- man, not God is defining Christianity.
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The largest church of any kind in Japan. . . . These people are making history. Amen church ? But you know something?
(JR note re: Frank Kim)
But you know something, Frank got into the Word. He got with brothers that gave **him faith, and that's another place you can get faith. Just borrow some faith from **somebody. And today this is the mightiest prophet of God of all time in Japan. Not, because of his wise and persuasive words, but the Spirits's power.
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Wrong! God is the author, source, and finisher of our faith. Kip is making it a work, and something we can get from man. The prophet bit raises its head again.
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Turn to 2 Corinthians, Chapter Two . . .
. . . He (John Causey) wasn't really sent by Doug Arthur, he was sent by God . . . ya gotta preach believing. We need to get a conviction, that when the church is not growing, the first person we need to look at is the preacher, and the second is his wife. They've lacked faith and they're in sin. Because of their lack of faith and they're in sin, the second conviction we just need to have. **We may not know the facts, but we can be sure of it: that there is sin in the church and until it repents it's not going to grow because it's God that gives the increase, and **God cannot work where there is sin. Light has no fellowship with darkness.
"We may not know the facts, but we can be sure of it???"
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Whoa Nelly. Look how Kip tried to substantiate his assertion that God cannot work where there is sin. What happened to James -- If anyone says he has not sinned, he is a liar (paraphrase)? God can work wherever He sovereignly chooses -- sin or no sin, unless it would violate His nature. God can work in spite of us. When is the church ever going to be perfect? Not on this earth! Yet, that's not what Kip appears to be saying.
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You know I was so proud of the U.S. churches, going through the MTV persecution. We went through that better that any other persecution show.
It was exciting to me then to see the way God blessed us on the Twenty-third of July with the twin church planting in Morgantown, WVA, and Burlington, VT. We are now in all fifty states of the United States of America.
For a long time I thought well we'll define Christianity in Russia, we'll define Christianity in Thailand and Bangkok, and a Buddhist nation. We'll define Christianity in Japan and a Shinto nation. But I've come to believe that we are defining Christianity in America. In sixteen years, the Holy Spirit has led us from one church, of thirty "would be" disciples in one nation, to become 210 churches in 71 nations with one hundred and seventeen thousand worshiping every Sunday morning. We're impacting the world. We're making religious history.
You know I think it should shock us. That the greatest Protestant movement was the Reformation Movement led by Calvin, Luther, and Zwengli. It's very divided, very fractured, it was very politically motivated because a lot of these men were supported by German princes that wanted to get out of the auspices and power of the Pope. And so let us just say their conversions were questionable. But the scope of the Reformation Movement in the lifetime of their founders was just Europe.
The nest most powerful Protestant movement was the Methodist movement, by the Wesley brothers, John and Charles. They had some impact in England, and scattered impact in the eastern United States, and that's it in the lifetime that they had.
And then our direct roots, the Restoration Movement, initiated by men like Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone, and somewhat by Thomas Campbell. This movement had some impact in the UK, a little impact in America in the lifetime of their founders.
Do you realize that the scope of not, quote, our movement, but God's movement has gone beyond the Restoration Movement, beyond the Methodist Movement, beyond the Reformation Movement in the lifetime of its founder, amen let's keep it going right here. We had made religious history. And as we enter into the brink of a new millennium it's time to start thinking about making history in every nation of the world. Are you with me church?
The third commandment of preaching is taken from 2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the Word. Be urgent in season and out of season. Correct. Rebuke. Encourage. With great patience and careful instruction." I don't know about you brothers, but I am very tired of the preacher stereotypes of exaggeration. When I get up in front of a church, (tape stops) Let's take it from the top. The third commandment is taken from 2 Timothy 4:2. It is preach radically and specifically. Correct, rebuke, and encourage.
He says be careful with your words. You know too many of us are given to **exaggeration. I'm tired of that **stereotype. I think far more of us are given to downplaying the bad. I put before you as a preacher, we don't need to kind of hit the target. We need to hit bulls eyes in our preaching. When we say an attendance, that's what it is. When we say a membership, that's what it is. When we say a problem, that's what it is. I don't want people kind of extrapolating out how good or how bad. **What I'm really saying, my word needs to be truth.
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IMHO, this one (above) needs little comment if any.
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I remember going down to San Diego in January. And I was even cautioned by a brother, "Now bro', they've just not been doing very good for a year." And I said, "Well, why are you saying that to me?" "Well, bro, I mean you're really awesome preaching. You know I just want you to be careful. Just, just know the history down there." I said, "Bro, I'm fully aware of the history down there. They haven't grown for a year and they're in sin.
I went down. I told the church about their lack of growth. I laid out the stats, the church. We're so afraid to tell the church the stats. Let me tell you something. Let the people know the problem. Lay it out, good or bad, indifferent. We're family. Let's just lay it out on the kitchen table right there, and once it's out, then you can deal with it.
You see, once they knew the problem, then I gave a specific instruction and here it was: My challenge for the San Diego Church I want you to take up the challenge we did in Boston when we stalled out in the mid-80's and that's what we called the "one a day plus challenge." Every Christian, everyday, has to lead one person to church. And it was kinda fun back in Boston in those days. Cause you know you'd go out about 11:15, hit the 7-Elevens, you know, and you know make sure you got one guy that you asked. But you know there was a revival in the church because of it. And I think the evangelism in so many of our churches just flat stinks. It's not a matter of just expecting our members to be evangelistic, they need to be evangelistic. It's not an ideal, it's a standard that Jesus expects now. Preach it.
An you know today, the San Diego church is one of the fastest growing churches in all of the movement . . . .
From the defiance campaign onward, going to prison became a badge of honor among Africans. I'm telling you in the movement, we have got a fear of prison. Now I appreciate all the administrators that want to keep us out for reasons that are wrong. Jesus went to prison on trumped up charges of tax evasion and subversion to a nation. The apostles all went to prison. Now if you're gonna reduplicate what Jesus did and the apostles, you think you're going to do it better so you escape going to prison? I think there is a fear in our fellowship, of radicalness, to the point that leads to prison and to death.
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Kip's martyr complex shows up again in the previous paragraph.
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I think we've forgotten to preach the radical message of who is saved. When you preach who is really saved: that you gotta have faith, you gotta repent, you gotta become a true disciple of Jesus, and then you gotta be water immersed for the forgiveness of sins received through the Holy Spirit, that excludes all other denominations, and certainly the Buddhists, the Islamics, everybody else that's out there.
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"Become a true disciple" -- sounds like works to me.
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That's gonna tick some people off.
When you say, we're the only true church, we're made up only of disciples, that's gonna tick the religious people off. Those were the greatest enemies of Jesus. When you lay out that sin is absolute from God, it's a standard. When you lay out these are not just cultural variation, but you lay out from the pulpit radically and specifically, that the alternative lifestyle, quote, homosexuality is sin, you're gonna make some enemies. When you start taking away the fuzziness and . . . .
...When you tell people that biblically, **personality conflicts are sin,
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and we're to love one another no matter what age, no matter what background, no matter what they've done to us, no matter what they've thought about us, no matter what they have in their heart. Our retaliation back, is hate and bitterness. It's sin.
You're gonna make some enemies. When you tell people that they're to love God and the church more than their physical family, you're gonna make some enemies. When go into these nations and you say I love God, more than this nation, I love the kingdom of God more than the kingdom of the United States, more than the kingdom of South Africa, more than the kingdom of Russia, more than the kingdom of China, that's gonna upset some people. That's what got the early Christians in trouble, not to bow a knee to Caesar.
Let me tell you something. There will be people to whom we preach radically and whose faith they will respond. Amen. There will be people that in the denominational world, they talk about the true church filled with disciples. They're sick of a denominational, watered-down Milquetoast religion. They're gonna come and join us. Amen.
But we preach about sin, people will say, Amen, someone help me. I've been in bondage. Free me through the blood of Jesus.' Amen. And when we talk about loving God, that we've got a family that never quits on us, no matter how we act, what we do, who we offend, let me tell you something, they're gonna want to join us. Amen.
Let me tell you something. It's radical. It's radical beyond belief that this day and **hour, that Russians are hugging Americans, but only in the kingdom of God.
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It's radical that Egyptians are hugging Israelis', but only in the kingdom of God. It's radical that Chinese are hugging Japanese, only in the kingdom of God. It's radical that the Mexicans and the Argentines are hugging in the kingdom of God. It's radical that black and the whites are hugging in Johannesburg, but in Harlem, or in South Central L.A. That is radical. We gotta preach it.
. . .I want you to go back and leaven all the churches, and you tell them what you've seen in Johannesburg. You let them know what the Johannesburg Church of Christ is all about. You let them know that we're really doing HOPE work over here, not like **so many denominations that fake it.
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Fake it??? Oh really!
©1997 by Joanne Ruhland <email@example.com>. All rights reserved.
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